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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

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From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: May 28, 2020 9:28AM

Hi
I mentioned this before, but who exactly are you speaking with? Have you
asked to talk to either of the agency 508 Coordinator or their staff?

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:17 AM Ilana Gordon < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I knew when I asked about this subject there would be a flurry of
> information. Thank you for your insight. Most of what has been said is not
> new, i.e., that creating accessible PDFs is subject to the limitations of
> software and the way documents are created. That's why it's important for a
> group like this to exist. To make matters worse, the people who are
> considering the efficacy of accessible documents are using a list of
> criteria that are about as much as they know regarding making documents
> accessible and not considering the usability outside of a checklist.
>
> Consistently I find myself arguing with government staff who don't even
> know what 508 Compliance is. There are arbitrary additions to Agency
> checklists made by staff that are 508 police officers who know absolutely
> nothing about it other than a document needs to fulfill a checklist. This
> is probably true among many software developers as well.
>
> As a remediator I find myself not only remediting 508 compliant documents
> but constantly having to educate the very people who are making
> uninformative decisions.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilana
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:56 AM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lisa,
> >
> > There are no "multiple layers" in the PDF in this sense of the term.
> There
> > is simply... content and tags.
> > Content is text, graphics, form fields, annotations, etc.
> > Tags are semantic structures (H2, P, Table, etc). These are applied to
> > content and are used to describe "info and relationships' as per WCAG SC
> > 1.3.1. Tags are the only means of providing these structures in PDF.
> > Otherwise I fully agree with you, and am very encouraged to hear that you
> > are working to convince other software developers to improve their
> support
> > for Tagged PDF.
> >
> > Duff.
> >
> > > On May 28, 2020, at 07:53, L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Duff,
> > >
> > > Unfortunately I know all about these layers, but there is still no
> > reason.
> > > There is no reason to have multiple layers, what you see should be what
> > you
> > > get...whether you print, tag or whatever...This is partially why, in my
> > > personal opinion, PDFs are still inaccessible. 90% of the ones I have
> > seen
> > > since 2000 are a problem in some way, and most in major ways. Plus tags
> > are
> > > just one aspect of PDFs, people will all sorts of disabilities use PDFs
> > as
> > > you know well.
> > >
> > > I gave up on Adobe, they moved forward for a long, long time and the
> last
> > > 10 years they moved backward. Not in InDesign, InDesign is amazing and
> > > kudos to whoever worked on the accessibility aspect of it, now if they
> > > could move back those people to PDF we might get back to where PDF
> > > was...Microsoft has been kicking butt in terms of accessibility the
> last
> > 5
> > > years, so maybe one day Adobe will follow suit.
> > >
> > > I am now trying to find other PDF creation programs and convince them
> to
> > do
> > > better, may have a shot!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Lisa
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:48 PM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Lisa,
> > >>
> > >> Content order and logical reading order are "separate" in PDF because
> > the
> > >> technology is obliged to represent content for different purposes.
> > >> Rendering (e.g., printing) is a different purpose than accessibility,
> > for
> > >> example, and often requires ordering of content for processing
> purposes
> > >> that differs from logical reading order. PDF was originally designed
> for
> > >> maximum fidelity in print. Accessibility considerations were only
> > addressed
> > >> in 2000 with the addition of the Tagged PDF feature to the format.
> > >>
> > >> In 2020 the difficulty is not in the format but in the software.
> > >> Unfortunately it remains the case that...
> > >> PDF viewer developers don't do a great job of supporting tagged PDF in
> > >> many cases. This is simply a business decision.
> > >> Users continue to use software that doesn't understand tagged PDF
> > instead
> > >> of seeking out and demanding better.
> > >> Authors continue to author content without consideration for semantics
> > >> (e.g., use tab stops instead of table structures, etc.)
> > >> I'll beat my usual drum once again: if you want better PDF support,
> > >> complain to those who make your software. Demand better support for
> > Tagged
> > >> PDF. In 2020 there's simply no excuse.
> > >>
> > >> Duff.
> > >>
> > >>> On May 27, 2020, at 18:30, Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> As per ISO 32000, one of the intents of PDF is that the "accessible
> > >> layer" and the visual layer are independent of each other.
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul Rayius
> > >>> Director of Training
> > >>> CommonLook
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
> Of
> > >> Ilana Gordon
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:19 PM
> > >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > >>>
> > >>> Agree so completely!
> > >>>
> > >>> Ilana
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:11 PM L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> What I have been wondering since Acrobat came out with the Z-Order
> and
> > >>>> Tags in the dark ages, why the heck are they still separate in 2020?
> > >>>> Can someone enlighten me on why PDFs have to have so many layers,
> and
> > >>>> why they can't be converted to one layer...so we just remediate one
> > >>>> layer? I am getting increasingly frustrated with tech from the
> > 2000s...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Lisa
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Ilana,
> > >>>>> There's often a lot of question/ debate about this. When it comes
> > >>>>> to PDF standards (both ISO 32000 and PDF/UA, as well as WCAG 2.0
> and
> > >>>>> 2.1)
> > >>>> they're
> > >>>>> all quite clear that the reading order in a PDF shall be determined
> > >>>>> by
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>> order of the tags. (To be more clear, WCAG doesn't specify the
> > >>>>> reading order "rules" for PDF but does provide some guidance in the
> > >>>>> WCAG
> > >>>>> Techniques.)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The confusion comes into play because some assistive technologies
> > >>>>> don't actually follow the standards and so they'll read content
> from
> > >>>>> "other areas" in a PDF - for example from the Content and or
> > >>>>> "Z-Order" pane in Acrobat. (The "Z-Order" pane is the one labeled
> > >>>>> "Order" but many people call it the "Z-Order" because of the "Z" in
> > >>>>> the icon.)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The problem, however, is that as accessible document creators
> and/or
> > >>>>> remediators, we can't possibly be called on to remediate according
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>> how a
> > >>>>> particular processor or AT will handle a PDF. In fact, to that
> > >>>>> point,
> > >>>> one
> > >>>>> of the great things about WCAG is that it's intended for
> > >>>>> accessibility while being technology independent. Personally, I
> > >>>>> think it's time for
> > >>>> PDF
> > >>>>> processors and AT developers to be held accountable and that their
> > >>>> products
> > >>>>> should adhere to the standards that are not only available but also
> > >>>>> achievable. But, that's my soapbox.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I hope this helps to clarify, though, that the reading order in a
> > >>>>> PDF is to be determined by the order of the Tags and not the
> > "Z-Order."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Best,
> > >>>>> Paul
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Paul Rayius
> > >>>>> Director of Training
> > >>>>> CommonLook
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> Behalf
> > >>>>> Of Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:56 PM
> > >>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I wish they had a checklist. They are a moving target and keep
> > >>>>> asking for things that seem over the top and in additional to the
> HHS
> > >> checklist.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Ilana
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ryan E. Benson
> > >>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Are you talking to the agency 508 Coordinator directly, or
> > >>>>>> somebody
> > >>>> else?
> > >>>>>> Does the agency have a checklist?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Ryan E. Benson
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:23 PM Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I should clarify that this is specifically for PDFs. And some
> > >>>>>>> government employee says it's a requirements.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ilana
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM Steve Green <
> > >>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Who is saying it's absolutely necessary? I can see how it
> > >>>>>>>> might cause accessibility issues when the layout of pages
> > >>>>>>>> change as they are
> > >>>>>> zoomed,
> > >>>>>>>> but it's by no means inevitable.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> That said, I tend to regard the presence of "z-index"
> > >>>>>>>> attributes as a warning that there might be other nastiness
> > >>>>>>>> because it suggests the
> > >>>>>>> design
> > >>>>>>>> is fundamentally flawed. It's the same as when you see
> > >>>>>>>> positive
> > >>>>>>> "tabindex"
> > >>>>>>>> attributes.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Steve Green
> > >>>>>>>> Managing Director
> > >>>>>>>> Test Partners Ltd
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>>>>> Sent: 27 May 2020 16:58
> > >>>>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Can the group weigh in on the latest techniques and efficacy
> > >>>>>>>> regarding Z-Order and Tag Order having to match and why this
> > >>>>>>>> would be absolutely necessary for Accessibility?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I'm having many discussions with government 508 officers going
> > >>>>>>>> around
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>> circles regarding this issue.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Any info is appreciated.
> > >>>>>>>> Ilana
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>>>>> CEO
> > >>>>>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > >>>>>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > >>>>>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > >>>>>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > >>>>>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > >>>>>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> List
> > >>>>>> archives
> > >>>>>>>> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>>>> CEO
> > >>>>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > >>>>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > >>>>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > >>>>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > >>>>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > >>>>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > >>>>> CEO
> > >>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > >>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > >>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > >>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > >>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > >>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>>> > > >>>>>
> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>>> > > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Ilana Gordon
> > >>> CEO
> > >>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > >>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > >>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > >>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > >>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > >>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > >>> > > >>> > > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>
> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Ilana Gordon
> CEO
> Word Wizards, Inc
> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > >